Another year, another great show. Maybe a bit smaller this year, so we'll work towards fixing that for next year.

See you guys next year, on November 11-15, 2013

Here's the awards for those who missed them:

Overall
Best of Show: The Purple Coin
Runner up: Metroid Remix and Pokemon Mystery Dungeon

Mario
Best of: The Purple Coin
Runnerup: Mushroom Patrol: Midas Machine
Most Promising: Super Mario Bros: Odyssey

Zelda
Best of: Legend of Zelda: Shattered Dimensions
Runner up: A Legend of Zelda: Horn of Balance
Most Promising: The Legend of Zelda: Echoes of Aurelia

Metroid
Best of: Metroid Remix
Runner up: Metroid: The Father Hunt
Most Promising: Metroid Dread

Fire Emblem
Best of: Fire Emblem: Immortal Sword
Runner up: Fire Emblem: World Cup

Misc
Best of: Pokemon Mystery Universe
Runnerup: Mega Man: Day in the Limelight 2

Minigame Winner
Samus's Garden by Guinea

any additional feedback and whatnot can be done here

I'm quite curious on the "runner-up" in the Fire Emblem section.

More specifically, I'm just curious how an incredibly incomplete web app beat out two ROM hacks with tangible progress, multiple new features, completely custom levels, plots, and, in DoF's case, extensive graphical work.

I hope you'll understand that I'm not a sore loser or anything, I'm just a bit...baffled? Could someone enlighten me to the logic of the decision?

I believe there was difficulty comparing the ROM hacks to the other games, but in hindsight there probably should've been a ROM award in that category because of that.

IMO romhacks don't fit under a "fangame" convention.

Congrats to all of the winners, though!

Maybe instead of just a ROM award in a category it should just be an entirely separate category? I feel like they're a completely different kind of thing than most submissions.

What isn't "fangame" about a ROM hack? It's just a fangame using a preexisting engine in from one of the series' games.

I don't see how there's any difficulty in comparing the ROM hacks to other games, the end product is the same, it's still a fangame that should be judged on-par with everything else. The only difference is in the method behind the games. It's kind of a silly assertion, and doesn't really answer my question in a satisfactory way. Judging on an equal basis, I'm curious how an incomplete web app was chosen over the two ROM hacks submitted.

I think a fangame is more of a game designed and created fully form a fan. I think a ROM hack would fit more under the category of a fan-designed modification to a game.

I'm pretty sure judging isn't just based just on how a game plays. You have to think about the artwork, the level design, the work put into a game. (EDIT: Also, I'd like to mention how his engine is open-sourced. He's offering a great tool to the fangame community.)

ROM hacks are an entirely different thing than writing a game from scratch. I'm not trying to downplay your work, I think it's great what you've done; but you have to realize what it looks like when you're comparing a rom hack with a few custom levels and classes compared to a fangame created from scratch. I agree with the judges and think a custom built web game is a lot more impressive than a ROM hack. Calling the game incredibly incomplete is in my opinion a travesty, and comparing his custom engine to your ROM hack running on an engine built by Nintendo would be hard for any judge.

Finally, remember that this isn't supposed to be a competition. This is a fangame CONVENTION. The awards are just an icing on the cake; something to spotlight something that the convention heads think is special. You may not agree with them, but respect their decisions, and remember it really doesn't mean much in the long run.

Well, the more official resources a fan game uses, the less of a fan game it is- the fan component just isn't there anymore. It becomes just a mod essentially. I mean honestly I don't know if rom hacks are even considered fan games very often if at all.

I'm not saying rom hacks don't require work or anything like that, I appreciate them quite a bit. I mean, I think the earlier years of NCFC we probably wouldn't accept them at all. It's just that the people who do best of show have their own preferences and ideas about what makes a good fan game. And if you don't like that? Well then, step up and submit reviews, or sign up to be a judge yourself. We got a total of 0 submissions for judges this year, despite all the complaining about staff picking the best of show, it's clear that's what you guys want. I've given the NCFC community every chance possible to contribute to the best of show but absolutely no one is interested.

We're seriously considering dropping best of show altogether next year. It's never been a contest of saying some games are good and some games are bad or anything like that, just a fun bonus for some people. But it seems like its strayed so far from that there isn't even a point to it anymore.

I was just curious about the logic behind the decision, because it seemed strange to me. I don't care about awards, I'm perfectly happy with a legitimate loss, but the reason's you've outlined are a bit silly to me. You're essentially discrediting two years of work I've put into my project, even though you're trying to cover your hide by saying "no offense." Hint: That never works.

Quote:a rom hack with a few custom levels and classes compared to a fangame created from scratch.

Yeah, that's pretty much discrediting not only my work, but the fantastic effort by the Dream of Five team. Their graphics are nearly completely custom, as is most everything in the hack. It's on-par with everything you should expect from a fangame, and to have it at a natural disadvantage is, quite frankly, bullsh*t of the highest degree.

At the end of the day, I simply find it absurd to judge ROM hacks on a different basis. They're all fangames. The only difference is in the methodology; cracking Nintendo's engine, being able to reverse engineer something and create something completely new from it, that's pretty difficult. We've not only taken their engine, we've taken it further than they ever did; creating things like achievements in a GBA game, coding completely custom chapter goals, it's nothing to scoff at.

The games should be judged on the quality. That's the philosophy I bring to this sort of thing, and I hope you'll understand why I found the decision a bit baffling. It's not that big of a deal, I just wanted to understand what the people behind the decision valued about that entry. No reason to start a shitshow out of it. I'll take my leave.

EDIT: You guys censor bullsh*t to "cowpoop"? :|

I'm not saying "no offense" although that might have been a phrase uttered by you guys during fight night when World Cup was brought up...

It seems like you're not even actually bothering to respond to anything I said. Read my post again and come back when you've realized that not winning best of show does not mean you didn't put work into your game.

Quote:

Quote:a rom hack with a few custom levels and classes compared to a fangame created from scratch.

Yeah, that's pretty much discrediting not only my work, but the fantastic effort by the Dream of Five team. Their graphics are nearly completely custom, as is most everything in the hack. It's on-par with everything you should expect from a fangame, and to have it at a natural disadvantage is, quite frankly, ... of the highest degree.

Please don't take my post out of context. I said compared to, and explained how I was talking about his engine made from scratch. As I've said I think the work you've guys put in is great and I really don't think anybody is trying to downplay that.

Quote:At the end of the day, I simply find it absurd to judge ROM hacks on a different basis. They're all fangames. The only difference is in the methodology; cracking Nintendo's engine, being able to reverse engineer something and create something completely new from it, that's pretty difficult.

That difference is a pretty huge one. It's like trying to compare pictures generated from models made in 3ds max to pictures that were sprited. They're two totally different processes with different goals.

Quote:You're essentially discrediting two years of work I've put into my project, even though you're trying to cover your hide by saying "no offense."

I imagine you're talking to me since the rest of your post seems to be, I'd like to clarify that I am no way, shape, or form, past or present, a staff member or judge of this convention.

(11-17-2012, 12:46 PM)Kesha Wrote: Well, the more official resources a fan game uses, the less of a fan game it is- the fan component just isn't there anymore. It becomes just a mod essentially. I mean honestly I don't know if rom hacks are even considered fan games very often if at all.

SovietShark Wrote:I'm pretty sure judging isn't just based just on how a game plays. You have to think about the artwork, the level design, the work put into a game. (EDIT: Also, I'd like to mention how his engine is open-sourced. He's offering a great tool to the fangame community.)

For reference, do remember that we're talking about hacks which heavily modify the graphics, the sounds, the maps, the music, and in one case, the level structure and linearity (Which in turn requires an engine modification). These are not like some simple Lunar Magic Super Mario World level hack we're talking about here. In comparison, the Java game is basically nothing -but- it's engine. And it doesn't even feel like a Fire Emblem game because of the lack of proper RPG stats, it'd have been better off if it was based on Advance Wars. I won't go as far as to say that FEWC outright "sucks" like some people would, but it's really easy yo see why it was unpopular.

Besides, FEWC doesn't have any custom anything -besides- the engine.

Quite bluntly, it's easy to see why people would think the ROM hacks got snuffed just for being ROM hacks. As someone who's been attempting to bring more ROM hackers to NCFC, I'm disturbed by this.

On another note, while I may have this perspective because the game ran really slow on my computer, I don't see how Purple Coin got best of show over the non-Mario "Bests" this year. While a good game in it's own right, it was competing against projects which were significantly grander in scope and technical accomplishments.

It's especially silly looking when the Mario fangames were not even as popular this year as the other entries. Last year the popular vote and the "best of show" at least had some correlation; this year, it's like the judges completely went and outright completely disregarded popular opinion this time.

As for the notice about the show needing judges... if I ever got that, I would've applied, but I was only asked to do the Livestream. Which I did, and that got me so busy that I couldn't do reviews, although my opinions of the fangames may reflect in my playthroughs. If my opinions were asked of for the best of show, I would've gladly supplied them, but as far as I could see the judging process was as closed-doors as it was last year.

Quote:We're seriously considering dropping best of show altogether next year. It's never been a contest of saying some games are good and some games are bad or anything like that, just a fun bonus for some people. But it seems like its strayed so far from that there isn't even a point to it anymore.

The problem with "Best of show" is quite obvious when it's not awarding the "Best of show". It appears your best chances of winning the "Best of show" is to make a "good" Mario fangame that's not a ROM Hack and hope there isn't one better than your's, but if you make anything that's not a Mario Fangame or is a ROM Hack, you've pretty much lost any chance of winning the "Best of show", and a ROM hack in general will never win best in it's category, even losing to a significantly lower-quality product. This looks like a bias. This is especially glaring in a NCFC that at best had a few "good' Mario games and lacked a "killer" Mario fangame like Psycho Waluigi, while in comparison "Pokemon Mystery Universe" is EASILY a "killer" Pokemon fangame.

I assume this is probably because of NCFC's roots as a MFGG-oriented event leading to a favouritism of "Mario fangames" inherent in the system. I suggest if you do judging next year you go out of your way to get non-Mario fangamers to judge.

Quote:Finally, remember that this isn't supposed to be a competition. This is a fangame CONVENTION. The awards are just an icing on the cake; something to spotlight something that the convention heads think is special. You may not agree with them, but respect their decisions, and remember it really doesn't mean much in the long run.

The problem with this is quite obvious;
1) You call the awards "Best of show", which by it's nature fuels competitive ideas.
2) You don't have enough awards going around in general to award things which are "Special" (and then, you remove the "Most Promising" award from areas where you -could- give a well-deserved award. Good job. >.>)
3) The awards have been given out in this pattern both times I've been here, so it's quite apparent this has been how it's been for the past 6 events. It's hard to think what you award is "special" when it's clear there's a lack of breaking from the mold.

If you want to can the "Best of show", perhaps that'd be for the best. All it seems to do anymore is cause post-event drama. I suggest next year we conclude with a pre-scripted Livestream event instead.

Quote:Last year the popular vote and the "best of show" at least had some correlation; this year, it's like the judges completely went and outright completely disregarded popular opinion this time.

I don't see any judging guidelines on the site. Maybe the likes having nothing to do with judging? It would make sense seeing how many people I've seen advertising people to just vote for their game. It'd just promote people voting for the one project they know of and like, and not try to look at other games to find something new or cool. I could see why they chose that route if they did.

(11-17-2012, 01:28 PM)SovietShark Wrote: I don't see any judging guidelines on the site. Maybe the likes having nothing to do with judging? It would make sense seeing how many people I've seen advertising people to just vote for their game. It'd just promote people voting for the one project they know of and like, and not try to look at other games to find something new or cool. I could see why they chose that route if they did.

1) There were, in total, quite a bit less likes this year than last year, especially considering only 1 game broke past 100 votes (Pokemon Mystery Universe, which IIRC had more votes last year)
2) I highly doubt the Fire Emblem community could heavily factor into the like count with how niche the franchise is. Also, 3 of the FIre Emblem games were too evenly matched count-wise for me to think one person in particular was gunning for votes.
3) The one group where this would MOST apply - the Mario communities - had the least total likes. (Well, not quite "least", but heck, I don't recall any of the games breaking past 30 likes when normally these are the ones that get 100+)

To sum it up: "Viewer Like Fraud" doesn't appear as logically plausible this year as it did last year. Besides, the oft-voted games were all solid picks anyway.

Kiddo, I just want to say, I appreciate all of your work with the livestream this year. Don't get upset at what I'm going to say.

(11-17-2012, 01:23 PM)KiddoCabbusses Wrote:

(11-17-2012, 12:46 PM)Kesha Wrote: Well, the more official resources a fan game uses, the less of a fan game it is- the fan component just isn't there anymore. It becomes just a mod essentially. I mean honestly I don't know if rom hacks are even considered fan games very often if at all.

SovietShark Wrote:I'm pretty sure judging isn't just based just on how a game plays. You have to think about the artwork, the level design, the work put into a game. (EDIT: Also, I'd like to mention how his engine is open-sourced. He's offering a great tool to the fangame community.)

For reference, do remember that we're talking about hacks which heavily modify the graphics, the sounds, the maps, the music, and in one case, the level structure and linearity (Which in turn requires an engine modification). These are not like some simple Lunar Magic Super Mario World level hack we're talking about here. In comparison, the Java game is basically nothing -but- it's engine. And it doesn't even feel like a Fire Emblem game because of the lack of proper RPG stats, it'd have been better off if it was based on Advance Wars. I won't go as far as to say that FEWC outright "sucks" like some people would, but it's really easy yo see why it was unpopular.

Besides, FEWC doesn't have any custom anything -besides- the engine.

Quite bluntly, it's easy to see why people would think the ROM hacks got snuffed just for being ROM hacks. As someone who's been attempting to bring more ROM hackers to NCFC, I'm disturbed by this.

The reason they were not included in the awards was because the judge's felt it would be difficult to compare it against the two other game that were entirely custom. They were left out of the judging. A lack of a subsequent special award to make up for this fact is the glaring omission in the awards this year. But the judges thought this would be OK because these awards are just picks that are supposed to be icing on the cake for the fangame creators that made them. Clearly the judges thought incorrectly. I personally would give a special award to Fire Emblem: Dream of Five now that we've gone through all this, but that doesn't matter as toes have already been stepped on. And while we're on the topic of judging, I'm going to say it here though I originally wasn't going to: the lack of extra judges hurt the judging process this year.

Quote:On another note, while I may have this perspective because the game ran really slow on my computer, I don't see how Purple Coin got best of show over the non-Mario "Bests" this year. While a good game in it's own right, it was competing against projects which were significantly grander in scope and technical accomplishments.

It's especially silly looking when the Mario fangames were not even as popular this year as the other entries. Last year the popular vote and the "best of show" at least had some correlation; this year, it's like the judges completely went and outright completely disregarded popular opinion this time.

Last year people were concerned about popular opinion overriding other fangames. That didn't really happen. This year there were a lack of booth reviews to get popular opinion from - and booth likes are a poor indicator as people were frequently telling their forum members to merely go out and like their game. But really, I don't see how you can say the likes were completely disregarded when PMU also got a top spot. No they weren't strongly correlated, but they were not equivalent to votes either.

I want to address a certain point the most though.

Quote:The problem with "Best of show" is quite obvious when it's not awarding the "Best of show". It appears your best chances of winning the "Best of show" is to make a "good" Mario fangame that's not a ROM Hack and hope there isn't one better than your's, but if you make anything that's not a Mario Fangame or is a ROM Hack, you've pretty much lost any chance of winning the "Best of show", and a ROM hack in general will never win best in it's category, even losing to a significantly lower-quality product. This looks like a bias. This is especially glaring in a NCFC that at best had a few "good' Mario games and lacked a "killer" Mario fangame like Psycho Waluigi, while in comparison "Pokemon Mystery Universe" is EASILY a "killer" Pokemon fangame.


I assume this is probably because of NCFC's roots as a MFGG-oriented event leading to a favouritism of "Mario fangames" inherent in the system. I suggest if you do judging next year you go out of your way to get non-Mario fangamers to judge.

This, quite frankly, is insulting. Let's look at the runnerups. Metroid Remix and PMU. Neither are Mario games. PMU has the most likes in the entire convention. Last year's overall awards were given to Project AM2R and Megaman Battle Network Chrono X. Neither are Mario games. Please don't say there's a bias in the judging because you disagree with the decisions when looking further will reveal there isn't.

Quote:

Quote:Finally, remember that this isn't supposed to be a competition. This is a fangame CONVENTION. The awards are just an icing on the cake; something to spotlight something that the convention heads think is special. You may not agree with them, but respect their decisions, and remember it really doesn't mean much in the long run.

The problem with this is quite obvious;
1) You call the awards "Best of show", which by it's nature fuels competitive ideas.
2) You don't have enough awards going around in general to award things which are "Special" (and then, you remove the "Most Promising" award from areas where you -could- give a well-deserved award. Good job. >.>)
3) The awards have been given out in this pattern both times I've been here, so it's quite apparent this has been how it's been for the past 6 events. It's hard to think what you award is "special" when it's clear there's a lack of breaking from the mold.

1) This is a problem. Judge's pick would be better. Maybe we'll get them renamed for this year since people have clearly gotten upset over it.
2) Yes, this was a glaring omission. I addressed this further up, but I'll say again, the judge's found it difficult to compare the ROM hacks and then left them out thinking the awards would not be taken as competitively as they are. Now that we see how seriously people are taking them, an award should have been given to one of them, and it probably would have been Dream of Fire.
3)I'm not sure what pattern you are referring to, unless you mean the aforementioned "mario bias."

Quote:If you want to can the "Best of show", perhaps that'd be for the best. All it seems to do anymore is cause post-event drama. I suggest next year we conclude with a pre-scripted Livestream event instead.

Personally? I'd be fine with getting rid of the awards, especially because this has blown up more than the one in 2010, which was what caused us to initially start the booth reviews. I find the competitiveness it brings about saddening, including the fact that people will advertise how their game is in NCFC but the only reason you should care is because you are a fan of their work and need to help them win that award!. This convention is supposed to be geared around letting people know about new games, getting word out, and having fun. The awards are clearly taking away from that for some people this year.

Honestly, I feel like the ROM hacks should've just been judged on the same level as everything else. That's the core mistake. What matters, ultimately, is the quality of the product.

At this point, it's basically beating a dead horse. What's done is done. We're not offended by the awards, we were just curious as to why they were awarded the way they were (except for that communist shark person who offended us, of course). If there was a mulligan, I'd say that awarding a "most promising" to World Cup would be a perfectly fine course of action. It's promising to see someone attempting an online Fire Emblem experience, even if the project isn't exactly "there" yet. Runner-up would have to be Dream of Five, like Emperor said. What's most troubling, though, is that we were basically disqualified from the judging on the basis of being ROM hacks. Hopefully, in the future, the show won't take such a hostile approach to our craft. Live & learn, gentlemen (and ladies).

I'll just address a few more points before I move on to my regular buesiness.

(11-17-2012, 02:11 PM)Emperor Wrote: This, quite frankly, is insulting. Let's look at the runnerups. Metroid Remix and PMU. Neither are Mario games. PMU has the most likes in the entire convention. Last year's overall awards were given to Project AM2R and Megaman Battle Network Chrono X. Neither are Mario games. Please don't say there's a bias in the judging because you disagree with the decisions when looking further will reveal there isn't.

On the note of Metroid Remix, and the Metroid category in general this year: This year we had difficulties streaming both Metroid Remix and Metroid Dread. I also feel as though Father Hunt deserved more attention for it's original sprites and music, and for running smoothly compared to the other two games. With these in mind, I don't believe Metroid Remix deserved the spot it got. This brings into mind a different issue though involving the Metroid categories; I'm not entirely sure what's up with it, so for now I'll best describe it as similar to a seniority award thing. While I wasn't around pre-2011, it was apparent that AM2R was popular and hyped (among the Mario fangamers, even) long before my entrance, and AM2R would surely have won again this year if it was around, but since it wasn't, the award instead went to it's competitor from last year, in spite of everything I've said about Father Hunt, or people's reception of Metroid Dread (Which may have been marred by people alleging stolen content from AM2R, unfortunately).

Perhaps my low-spec CPU and my Livestream experiences really mess with my perspective, but I can't really understand it, myself. Maybe it helps Metroid Remix that it is featured on the webpage of Metroid Headquarters, a site with affiliation to MFGG, while Father Hunt appears to have come from nowhere. It makes me believe that a Metrod game's chances of getting an award tie in more to how well-known it is with the MFGG community than to it's own merits. Unfortunately, thinking in that mindset it's hard for me to think the Metroid picks really "count" for anything,

As for Chrono X, I suppose I'll give you that one, but funny you mention it, because I remember feeling last year that PMU got snuffed in favor of that one even though I thought Chrono X felt too early alpha-ish for me to consider it as such. If it was here this year, would it have beaten PMU again? Perhaps I'm seeing it too much on a "whole" when others are "year by year", but it seems like PMU got runner-up this year more by being persistent than anything else, when I felt it deserved a spot last year and then would've made way for another game this year (Since while it's as good as ever, it doesn't actually seem to be dramatically different code or feature-wise from last year besides the new beginner tutorial, while in comparison, Immortal Sword's got a newer, more optimized engine).

I will say that I wouldn't say something I didn't believe, and I tend to be stubborn about it, so I'll probably just think how I do going into next year. I didn't mean to sound insulting, as blunt as I may be otherwise (Not to sound cliche or fake, but blame Aspergers); I just feel like these are things we need to think about before deciding on whether to continue the award show or do something else for the finale next year.

BTW, be sure to give me a really good heads-up if more things are moved into being done via the Livestream next year, award show or no.

I think that a lot of this confusion would be cleared up if there was simply a document that would outline the methods that will be used for judging in the future. If ROM hacks will not be judged on par with traditional fan games then it should be noted so that everybody knows before hand. Personally I am glad for the work that the NCFC staff put into running this competition and it is saddening to see so much complaining. Personally I agree that Rom hacks are on a different playing field than from the ground up Fan Games as designing the engine is a HUGE portion of making a fan game, but that is not to be-little Rom Hacks, it just means that they are a different animal.

Lets not remove this little competition portion of NCFC, but rather clarify it to avoid such confusion in the future... That is my two cents at least. Also, thank you for your award to TLOZ: Shattered Dimensions. I appreciate it. Having a little competition is good, and it is always nice to have your hard work recognized. Thanks again!

(11-17-2012, 03:06 PM)Aero88 Wrote: Personally I agree that Rom hacks are on a different playing field than from the ground up Fan Games as designing the engine is a HUGE portion of making a fan game

One thing you have to remember is that many ROM hacks will modify the engine extensively, in some cases to the point where it's barely recognizable. If you're familiar with many Sonic ROM hacks, you may know what I mean; adding characters with completely different gameplay mechanics, adding different game modes, giving characters new abilities, and changing the level structure from being linear to something different (Which Elibian Nights does), and sometimes even fixing the bugs inherent in the older game engine, all require reverse engineering skills and heavy code modification which, most of the time, is done in raw assembly code so as for the code to run quickly and smoothly. Furthermore, many ROM hacks (including the ones featured this year) change both the graphics and the music (the music, itself, requiring being re-coded in the game's music engine simply to be played, then tweaked to be pleasant to listen to, when most fangames simply use MIDIs or MP3s.). All this, and they still need to factor in the limitations of the hardware they're working with, so as the game doesn't break when playing on the actual hardware or on accurate emulators. (And, of course, in the case of Sonic 1 Megamix, they literally ported the game from the Genesis to the Sega CD, which required changing the hardware the game ran on.... yeah, this is all a bit out there.)

Both Elibian Nights and Dream of Five were more elaborate than the typical, dime-a-dozen SMB Level Hacks you may otherwise be familiar with.

I am not going to pretend that I understand what goes into making a good rom hack as I have never even looked into it, but I do realize that there is an extreme amount of work that goes into it. I actually understand where you are coming from, but at the same time It still seems if I were a judge that it would be hard to compare them fairly... It is like trying to compare a perfect square to a perfect circle. Then again... In your defence there are plenty of traditional fan games out there that are based on other peoples fan game engines so... I don't know. It is just a gray area for me I guess.

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